Carmen and Eleazar
What do you think the Dynamic is with the Denali since they are basically just siblings and adopted into the group? Is it anything like the Cullens? Was it before their mother was destroyed? Could the Cullens ever function without Carlisle and Esme?
While I think Eleazar and Carmen are basically just the Spanish Esme and Carlisle, I don’t think they fulfill the roles of Carlisle and Esme within the Denali coven. Tanya is the leader, not Eleazar. She’s sort of the ‘Edward’ to Sasha’s ‘Carlisle,’ IMO. She was Sasha’s first and stepped up as leader when Sasha was killed. I sort of see Eleazar and Carmen as more of the Alice and Jasper, that is an ‘unrelated’ pair that joined an already established unit with a single creator. Tanya, Kate, and Irina were all Sasha’s creations, just as Edward, Esme, Rosalie and Emmett are Carlisle’s. Eleazar has a lot of experience—and so does Jasper—but neither usurped the place of the leader. Likewise both Tanya and Carlisle are the oldest of their respective groups, and I think the eldest vampire tends to be the leader unless there are extenuating circumstances (such as particular gifts—like Aro—being involved).
I tend to think Sasha was more of an Esme than a Carlisle. I’ve spoken about this before, but I see Esme as the much more traditionally parental of the two. Esme is the den mother, Carlisle is the mentor. I think Sasha was more Mom than mentor; she wanted a family, children (like Esme) rather than companions (Carlisle), and that’s what led her to create Vasilii.
If the Cullens lost Carlisle and Esme, I think Edward would fancy himself the Man of the House, but I don’t know that Jasper would be willing to follow someone who was so much younger than him (both in vampire terms and human terms). Jasper has enough experience to know a good leader when he sees one, and Edward is too hot-headed, frozen as he is at seventeen, and has not seen much of the vampire world. I don’t think Rosalie would like following Edward, either. Carlisle and Esme are the calm center of a rather opinionated and stubborn group of people—I don’t know that they could maintain a sense of unity and cohension without at least one of them, tbh.
Hi! I can't believe this is the first time I'm writing to you.. I keep on reading all posts and stuff that you have answered and I completely agree with what you write. Carlisle is definitely my favorite too! haha. Now that I'm writing to you I don't really know what to say, but I want you to know that I love your work and thoughts about Twilight. Please don't stop! lol. - Just a random question.. Have you read the fanfic "Under his skin"? If, what did you think about it? I find it interesting.
Ps (read my other post), what I mean that I find it interesting is ONLY how Eleazar see’s Carlisle.. lol. - Btw, I apologize from my bad english.. I’m from Sweden.
First of all, thanks! I’m glad you enjoy it!
I don’t think I’ve read it, but I might have heard of it—is that a slash one? With an OC? I’m not really into OCs (I want to read about the characters from the book, basically, not new ones), so it’s probably not my thing. While I didn’t actually care about Carlisle/Esme as a couple when I read the book(s), I’m kind of invested in them now. lol. It might be because they are so damn cute in the movies, but it’s partly because I know Esme’s backstory now and I think it’s rather sweet he was sort of her fantasy unattainable guy and then she ended up landing him anyway. lol.
The only male I could possibly ‘ship’ Carlisle with is Aro, but I think that would be one sided (Aro loves him and Carlisle’s just like… no, you’re a sociopath). XD
And now that I have the second half of your comment (lol) maybe I will have to check out the fic just to see how Eleazar sees him. That could be interesting. I’ve always thought Eleazar and Carlisle were two very similar characters. Almost too similar, maybe.
Carlisle was with the Volturi?
Carlisle stayed with the Volturi for a couple of decades (in the guide it’s listed as 1700 - 1720). He was never officially a member of the Volturi though, more like a guest. He found them while he was studying in Italy. I think it’s more likely, however, that the Volturi found HIM. Knowing how much Aro loves rare and unique things, I could imagine that one of the Volturi guards saw Carlisle and his golden eyes and “invited” him back to meet Aro.
While he stayed there, Aro liked to test him. According to the guide, one time Aro had some of the guards bring a bleeding human to the library where Carlisle was studying just to see how Carlisle would react. The Guide says that Aro was fascinated by Carlisle. He wanted to find the limits of his self-control, but he also sort of wanted him to keep it up. If he had ever failed, Carlisle would have become much less interesting to Aro. Carlisle tried to convince the Volturi to adopt his ‘vegetarian’ ways, but they always refused.
I don’t imagine the guards liked him much. I think they probably teased him. In my head they would call him things like “St. Carlisle” and “His Holiness” because of his refusal to kill anyone and the way he held on to his faith and believed vampires still had souls. I bet they found him to be preachy and pretentious. lol.
I find it strange that Jane didn’t meet him until Eclipse, however. Jane, according to the guide, had been with the Volturi since 800, so why did she not meet Carlisle when he was with them in the 1700s? She says in Eclipse: “It is nice to meet you, I had thought Aro was exaggerating” so she had never met him before!
I’m also not sure why he didn’t meet Eleazar when he was with the Volturi. Apparently Eleazar has never heard of vegetarian vampires until he met Tanya, Kate and Irina, so he can’t have crossed paths with Carlisle in Volterra. But if he was with the Volturi AFTER Carlisle was there, then surely he would have heard of him?
It doesn’t seem like SM thought these timelines through very well.
Further Thoughts on Eleazar’s Power
Okay, here’s something:
When Forever Dawn was written (and, this would have been conceivably when Eleazar and his apparently pretty useless power was created), New Moon and Eclipse didn’t exist. So Bella would not have met the Volturi in New Moon—she wouldn’t know Aro’s and Jane’s gifts didn’t work on her. In Twilight, Alice and Jasper’s powers work on her, the only one that doesn’t is Edward’s.
So, I GUESS, in terms of Forever Dawn, it might not be totally unreasonable that people would think she was just an exception to Edward’s power, rather than possessing a gift of her own? And then they would need Eleazar to point it out for them.
But because New Moon and Eclipse DO exist, and they DO know that Bella can block powers other than Edward’s, it becomes kind of silly that they can’t just figure this out on their own.
Yeah, I've always thought the "leaving the Volturi for a woman" thing was pretty gigantic and wondered why SM never elaborated on that fact OR those two characters. I think that one thing is what makes me wonder about them. (And I have faith in Christian, I've seen his work before and he is one of the best actors I've ever come across.)
Yeah I was really disappointed that there wasn’t more about them in the guide. Tanya, Kate and Irina got pretty specific origin stories (Tanya being Sasha’s great-niece, Kate kind of a badass bodyguard of a warrior princess, and Irina from a farming village) but we don’t know anything about how Eleazar and Carmen became vampires. That’s always my favorite part of vampire stories—how did they become one?—so it’s disappointing we didn’t get an answer for those two. That’s another reason I think they were just sort of added on to be the Carlisle/Esme of the Denalis, she obviously didn’t put too much thought into their origins. She gives us nothing about human Eleazar and Carmen or how they ended up as vampires. Who changed them? Why didn’t they stay with their creators? etc etc.
I've seen you say before that you feel that Carmen and Eleazar are basically the Spanish/Denali Coven duplicates of Carlisle and Esme, and while I do believe that Stephenie Meyer created them only for the purpose of being the Carlisle and Esme of the Denali Coven, I can't help but feel like there are distinct differences between all four people. I don't know, maybe that's just the way I imagine it in my own head.
I think of the four of them, only Carlisle is present enough in the story to get a clear picture in terms of personality. We just don’t see much of the others. I’m sure SM meant for them to be distinct, but from what little we see of them it’s like, oh look, a 300-year-old gentle vampire who used to live with the Volturi but is compassionate and only wants to live in peace, and his loving, maternal companion. Maybe Mia Maestro and Christian Camargo will have the opportunity to make them more distinct in the movie? I think they definitely have a lot of potential (leaving the Volturi for a woman is a pretty big deal!), but I didn’t see much in the books to make them noticeably different from Carlisle and Esme archetype-wise.
And I know how it is re: characters in your head! I’m the same way with some other Twilight characters. I just haven’t gotten around to fleshing out the other C/E yet. lol.
